David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

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BBrookshire
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David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by BBrookshire » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:23 pm

In regards to the numerous videos of David Irving's lectures at hotels and such around the US, I notice that after 2010, he seemed to think there was evidence in the coded communications that show the "6 Million" number could possibly be true. Which is a stark contrast to his lectures in all the years prior. I realize they have beaten him down pretty hard, but the simple math of it all still stands.

Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight?
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Jim Mathias
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by Jim Mathias » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:45 pm

BBrookshire wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:23 pm
In regards to the numerous videos of David Irving's lectures at hotels and such around the US, I notice that after 2010, he seemed to think there was evidence in the coded communications that show the "6 Million" number could possibly be true. Which is a stark contrast to his lectures in all the years prior. I realize they have beaten him down pretty hard, but the simple math of it all still stands.

Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight?
Could you provide your source on this claim? I'd like to look into it.
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by BBrookshire » Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:17 pm

Jim Mathias wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:45 pm
BBrookshire wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:23 pm
In regards to the numerous videos of David Irving's lectures at hotels and such around the US, I notice that after 2010, he seemed to think there was evidence in the coded communications that show the "6 Million" number could possibly be true. Which is a stark contrast to his lectures in all the years prior. I realize they have beaten him down pretty hard, but the simple math of it all still stands.

Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight?
Could you provide your source on this claim? I'd like to look into it.
Yes, I am speaking specifically of the talk he gave in Arlington Texas in 2014. Which I believe was pretty much his last stop or next to last stop in the states ever. I found the video on Telegram under "Ulrich Hirschmann Archive Links" titled "David Irving - On Himmler (2014)" there were clearly two kike reporters or writers in the audience that were bothering him. And it seemed to me he was placating them - because one asked at the end "Your not refuting the number of 6 million, you are just saying you don't think Hitler knew about it to that extent" Something to that effect. I wish I was savvy enough to link here to the video but I am not sure how - perhaps an NA member can assist with that. Just put that title in the search bar, it comes right up. I must also confess that the person running this channel does not like the NA, as he was archiving 3 books published by NA and they pulled his rights on those books for copyright reasons. He has some great content, I just wanted to put that disclaimer. Apparently to him National Socialism means everything is public domain. I hope he's just young.

Please check it out if you can, I would love to hear your thoughts, as I am an Irving fan and this bums me out a bit.
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by Grimork » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:25 am

https://t.me/ulrichhirschmannarchives/2948

I believe this is the video you are describing, BB?

We have problems with thieves all the time. It's one thing to share resources, it's another to take resources from a living, breathing organization that's trying to save the race. Really all stealing is bad though, it's not a hard concept to understand.

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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by Creedofiron » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:42 am

Irvine imo was always just an (honest) historian but that's not to say he hasn't been a fearless as he might have been given the sort of attention and pressures he's been subjected too.

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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by BBrookshire » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:15 am

Grimork wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:25 am
https://t.me/ulrichhirschmannarchives/2948

I believe this is the video you are describing, BB?

We have problems with thieves all the time. It's one thing to share resources, it's another to take resources from a living, breathing organization that's trying to save the race. Really all stealing is bad though, it's not a hard concept to understand.
I don't have the Telegram app on my laptop yet but if it starts off with white text on a green screen, that's the one. I would love to hear other opinions on the "count" that gets discussed. They clearly try to steer him to focus on that point, maybe he was just humoring them...not sure.

I agree about the theft, not sure how one comes to the conclusion that a market based economy allows for everything to be community property. Not sure they would have enjoyed the level of economic success they did in that case.
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by BBrookshire » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:17 am

Creedofiron wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:42 am
Irvine imo was always just an (honest) historian but that's not to say he hasn't been a fearless as he might have been given the sort of attention and pressures he's been subjected too.
That's a completely reasonable point. By 2014 he had been put through the ringer and maybe he was just placating a couple of jew writers who were there to ruin everyone's experience.
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Jim Mathias
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by Jim Mathias » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:06 pm

BBrookshire wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:17 am
Creedofiron wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:42 am
Irvine imo was always just an (honest) historian but that's not to say he hasn't been a fearless as he might have been given the sort of attention and pressures he's been subjected too.
That's a completely reasonable point. By 2014 he had been put through the ringer and maybe he was just placating a couple of jew writers who were there to ruin everyone's experience.
Any NA meetings, conferences, or what have you are Juden-frei. Irving might have wished to adopt that policy a bit earlier in his career! His "usual suspects" (as he likes to describe these troublemaking Jews) should never be allowed to interfere or cause problems by pushing their narratives in any academic function.

And about the "6 milliion" claim, let's look at this from an interesting angle: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=85432
Before WWII
Before WWII
Jewish world population 1933.png (484.64 KiB) Viewed 217 times
And after WWII
And after WWII
Jewish population 1948 World Almanac.png (485.77 KiB) Viewed 217 times
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by BBrookshire » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:53 pm

Jim Mathias wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:06 pm
BBrookshire wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:17 am
Creedofiron wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:42 am
Irvine imo was always just an (honest) historian but that's not to say he hasn't been a fearless as he might have been given the sort of attention and pressures he's been subjected too.
That's a completely reasonable point. By 2014 he had been put through the ringer and maybe he was just placating a couple of jew writers who were there to ruin everyone's experience.
Any NA meetings, conferences, or what have you are Juden-frei. Irving might have wished to adopt that policy a bit earlier in his career! His "usual suspects" (as he likes to describe these troublemaking Jews) should never be allowed to interfere or cause problems by pushing their narratives in any academic function.

And about the "6 milliion" claim, let's look at this from an interesting angle: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=85432
Jewish world population 1933.png
Jewish population 1948 World Almanac.png
Excellent documents!! Thank you for posting those. The math will never add up, ever. That was what bothered me the most about his conversation with the two jews, even if you throw out the materials in all the archives, you still can't beat the simple math. It's an impossibility.
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Re: David Irving - Watered down in his old age?

Post by Will Williams » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:24 pm

BBrookshire wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:23 pm
In regards to the numerous videos of David Irving's lectures at hotels and such around the US, I notice that after 2010, he seemed to think there was evidence in the coded communications that show the "6 Million" number could possibly be true. Which is a stark contrast to his lectures in all the years prior. I realize they have beaten him down pretty hard, but the simple math of it all still stands.

Has anyone else noticed this or have any insight?
I met Mr. Irving a couple of times in the 1990s, and again with my wife at a hotel in Knoxville, TN, at one of his talks. I paid him $50 then for a pre-order for his book on Himmler (that I've yet to receive). :|

Though this article is five years old, my old friend Hadding Scott gives a lot of insight to your question. Hadding is a very honest man, so trust what he writes here:

---

Talking Frankly about David Irving
A Critical Analysis of David Irving's Statement on the Holocaust
by Hadding Scott
Published: 2016-05-24
The following article is a critical analysis of some statements made by British historian David Irving in a “privately filmed interview” of April 2009 lasting over 2 hours, and entitled, “Talking Frankly.” Until early 2016, this interview was available only on DVD. It was posted on YouTube in March 2016. We cannot show it here, as YouTube has tagged it as "dangerous", so you will have to click the link above and watch it on their site.
I first became aware of David Irving about 1992 during the period (1988 – 1995) when he acquired the reputation of being a “notorious Holocaust Denier.” The David Irving of that time was an inspiring figure. He espoused the idealism of pursuing truth rather than profit. He was a fearless iconoclast. The fact that he was already a celebrity historian (for example having been discussed in Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse Five as the author of the book about Dresden, and having appeared on Leonard Nimoy’s In Search Of as an expert on Eva Braun) made his stand for the cause of Holocaust Revisionism all the more impressive. This was a man who had status and something to lose, who was nonetheless championing the most controversial of truths. The persona that David Irving projected in that period resonated with my own ideals and encouraged me to live up to them.

After his testimony for Ernst Zündel in1988, David Irving seemed to be an intellectual hero in full self-actualization. He said in a 1988 speech that he knew that he had “joined the ranks of the damned” and that the next five to ten years would be difficult, but that he would persevere. David Irving’s stand for Holocaust Revisionism seemed to be an expression of his long-evident character as the historian who intended to correct the omissions and distortions of victors’ history. Holocaust Revisionism seemed to be consistent with the essence of David Irving, the logical next stage in the evolution of the heroic historian.

But in retrospect, with greater knowledge, one can see that David Irving’s truth-advocacy was never entirely free of hesitation. While David Irving seemed to be an uncompromising truthteller, one can just barely discern the influence of calculated self-interest and the moistened finger in the breeze, even in his most outspokenly controversial period. The seed of retreat was always there.

For example, in that 1988 speech, wherein David Irving proclaims that he is now an “unbeliever” in the Auschwitz gas-chamber story, and that the whole gas-chamber story is likely false, he balks at blaming Jews for the lie. Instead, he claims that British psychological warfare put out the gas-chamber story “quite cold-bloodedly” -- although documents of the British government (visible on Irving’s own site) indicated that the British psychological warfare executive was repeating a story that came to them from Jews. I assume that David Irving learned of all of these documents (unearthed by Paul Norris) at about the same time, whence it follows that David Irving knew, when he said in 1988 that the British had invented the gas-chamber story, that it really came from Jews.

All of this points to a fear of the Jews that was never entirely overcome. Jewish power is, after all, a serious matter for a commercial author who depends on the Jewish-dominated publishing industry for his livelihood.

It seems that David Irving believed that he could minimize conflict with Jews by minimizing Jewish responsibility for the Holocaust-lie. During that 1988 speech, as Irving explains how Jews themselves are supposed victims of the lie, a man in the audience blurts out, “You’re very generous!” In 1988 David Irving was indeed generous in his assessment of the role of Jews in promoting the Holocaust, but that generosity did not save him from Jewish odium and organized Jewish harassment.

In 1996, when Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich appeared, it became clear that David Irving was in retreat, and trying to appease his enemies by writing a book that slammed a leading figure in Hitler’s Germany while showing sympathy toward Jews.

I heard a prominent Holocaust Revisionist at that time remark (privately) that David Irving had been accustomed to living the high life as a famous historian who drove a Rolls Royce, and, contrary to his professed idealism and professed willingness to sacrifice in pursuit of truth, David Irving had embraced Holocaust Revisionism with the expectation that it would be the next big thing in modern historiography, and that he would benefit from having gotten into it early – not realizing how adversely the Jewish backlash would affect his lifestyle and interfere with his career.

In other words, David Irving was never as idealistic as he professed to be. However impressive, however convincing and inspiring he seemed in the period from 1988 to 1995, David Irving was more heroic tenor than hero. This is clearer than ever today.

During the failed libel-suit against Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 2000, Irving complained extensively about the pecuniary loss that he had suffered as a result of Jewish propaganda against him as a “Holocaust Denier.” With that suit he was trying to escape the label “Holocaust Denier,” and in 2016 he seems to be still trying.

These days, David Irving actually promotes the proposition that there really was some kind of Holocaust, and, although he has not retracted his endorsement of the Leuchter Report (which he himself republished in 1989), on the whole he is not only trying to distance himself from Holocaust Revisionism but indeed working against it.

A big part of the problem with David Irving is the lack of rigor in his reasoning. Because he never bothers to define the term Holocaust, and never specifies how it is supposed to have happened, David Irving is able to say:

“How many died in the Holocaust? ... Well the answer is: a lot.”

It is always an inauspicious beginning to a discussion of the Holocaust when the term is left vague and undefined, because it means that every Jew who died of a disease, and every Jewish criminal who was punished, and even every Jew whose whereabouts were unknown after the war, may be counted as a victim of the Holocaust. Anyone who embarks on such a discussion without defining the term has already decided that the number who died in the Holocaust will be “a lot.”

Most of “Talking Frankly” is autobiographic, but in the final segment David Irving presents a revised version of the Holocaust that salvages as much of the genocide-accusation as can be salvaged without contradicting the Leuchter Report. There are three main elements here. The order in which he presents them reflects their importance in retreating from the quasi-heroic stand that he took in 1988. First he makes a partial retreat from his position on Auschwitz; then he asserts that many Jews were killed in the Operation Reinhardt camps; finally, he plays up an alleged mass-shooting of Jews that is supposed to have happened in 1941.
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That is page 1 of 12 pages. See the rest, here: https://codoh.com/library/document/talk ... irving/en/

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